All over.

[Andra Brack]

rocky,

Yes, the Lord teaches through similitudes and parables and metaphors as He says in Hosea. However, He is not the author of confusion. Most often, scripture will define the metaphor somewhere else or in a combination of places, or in the entire contexts of the word usage. Do you not understand that?

In our world, in our culture, the English word "oil" which can mean many things that are oily in texture, which includes both olive oil and crude oil. They are not the same thing at all however. And the Word makes it VERY clear that the meaning of oil used in Rev is olive oil.

Now, speaking of metaphors, it is also very clear throughout scripture that the oil is a symbol, or metaphor for the Holy Spirit. God created olive oil. God also uses it as a metaphor, pictures of the properties of the Holy Spirit. If you go back and read all the places where oil is used in scripture, you see a beautifully interwoven picture of the Holy Spirit - His personality, and His work in our lives. His oil burns bright and soft and without pollution.

Compare that to crude, dirty, black oil that you are speaking of. Just this thread existing shows how its properties are disgusting. Go and read all the verses where oil is used in scripture and then come back and say that it is talking about crude oil. You cannot say that God uses a certain word to symbolize one thing here and something else there. Again, He is not the author of confusion!


If you were to substitue crude oil in all those same verses, you would get a complete mess. Yes, scripture is indeed full of metaphors, similitudes, etc. Probably way beyond our means to understand (that is why we need the Holy Spirit - not crude oil - to shed light on scripture to our heart when we read it).

In Jesus alone,
Andra

[rockytopva]

Andra:

Back in those days they used the elaion (the oil) to feed the lamps. So crude 'feeds the lamps' in our day in time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmE29pCR5gg

I have offered a perspective in the book of Revelation in which we live in the Laodicean church age and in the time of the black horseman. But the Laodicean church age and the black horseman 'run together' with the other six church ages and the other two horseman. I have made this a very clear presentation. If you would like to put something similar together yourself I would give it audience.

I think it comes to the point where you either agree or disagree. In which, it is not conditional to salvation to understand the similitudes and mysteries of Revelations. I would also think that if we had 1,000 sincere bible scholars of the same church denomination write their interpretations of this prophecy that no two of them would be quite the same.

[Andra Brack]

rocky,

You said: Back in those days they used the elaion (the oil) to feed the lamps. So crude 'feeds the lamps' in our day in time.

Your proof of this? And please do not say it comes from Isaac Newton. We have been down that road before that he was not a believer. In fact, quite the opposite since he very clearly denied that Jesus was God.

From Easton's dictionary under the heading of oil:

Only olive oil seems to have been used among the Hebrews. It was used for many purposes: for anointing the body or the hair (Ex. 29:7; 2 Sam. 14:2; Ps. 23:5; 92:10; 104:15; Luke 7:46); in some of the offerings (Ex. 29:40; Lev. 7:12; Num. 6:15; 15:4), but was excluded from the sin-offering (Lev. 5:11) and the jealousy-offering (Num. 5:15); for burning in lamps (Ex. 25:6; 27:20; Matt. 25:3); for medicinal purposes (Isa. 1:6; Luke 10:34; James 5:14); and for anointing the dead (Matt. 26:12; Luke 23:56).

It was one of the most valuable products of the country (Deut. 32:13; Ezek. 16:13), and formed an article of extensive commerce with Tyre (27:17).

The use of it was a sign of gladness (Ps. 92:10; Isa. 61:3), and its omission a token of sorrow (2 Sam. 14:2; Matt. 6:17). It was very abundant in Galilee. (See OLIVE)

Under the heading for olive:

the fruit of the olive-tree. This tree yielded oil which was highly valued. The best oil was from olives that were plucked before being fully ripe, and then beaten or squeezed (Deut. 24:20; Isa. 17:6; 24:13). It was called "beaten," or "fresh oil" (Ex. 27:20). There were also oil-presses, in which the oil was trodden out by the feet (Micah 6:15). James (3:12) calls the fruit "olive berries." The phrase "vineyards and olives" (Judg. 15:5, A.V.) should be simply "olive-yard," or "olive-garden," as in the Revised Version. (See OIL)

I have offered a perspective in the book of Revelation in which we live in the Laodicean church age and in the time of the black horseman. But the Laodicean church age and the black horseman 'run together' with the other six church ages and the other two horseman. I have made this a very clear presentation. If you would like to put something similar together yourself I would give it audience.

I am not going to go down a road where the Lord does not lead. I am not talking at all about your theories (well, I did question the ones that came from Newton previously). I am merely trying to point out the hermenutical error in saying that the oil in Rev 6:6 is referring to crude oil when all solid herenutical clues point to it being olive oil. Scripture is not there for our private interpretation. It does not matter at all what the change from crude oil to olive oil does to your theory.



I think it comes to the point where you either agree or disagree. In which, it is not conditional to salvation to understand the similitudes and mysteries of Revelations. I would also think that if we had 1,000 sincere bible scholars of the same church denomination write their interpretations of this prophecy that no two of them would be quite the same.

It is not about agreeing or disagreeing to your theory. It is about improper use of seeing that as oil. I do not hestitate at all to think that all your bible scholars, if they were truly bible scholars would almost all agree is talking about oil in the same way the Word has been using it all along. You may want to do some reading on what different kind hermenutics are out there. If so, you would find that "bible scholars" from the same denomination would all be using the same type and would not have all the different interpretations.

The best reason for all the different interpretations is simply that the Lord still has the veils over our eyes for these future events. Only by relying on His grace to reveal His truths in His time and His way will we understand. Otherwise, we are the ships tossed in James 1.

No, this is not a salvation issue (although the Newton issue IS a salvation issue), but it is an issue of the proper way to interpret scripture. Most common and most correct is the grammatical-historical method. Otherwise, people would come up with quite bizarre ways of interpreting - like the use of crude oil where it is talking about olive oil and all the biblical metaphors associated with it (look up some of the above references).

More oil dictionary entries below: (These are from standard bible references, ones that any biblical scholar would have or have access to)

In Jesus alone,
Andra

[Andra Brack]

Notice that the Greek Word elaion does in fact mean olive oil:

From "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia"

OIL

oil (shemen; elaion):

1. Terms

2. Production and Storage

3. Uses

(1) As a Commodity of Exchange

(2) As a Cosmetic

(3) As a Medicine

(4) As a Food

(5) As an Illuminant

(6) In Religious Rites

(a) Consecration

(b) Offerings

(c) Burials

4. Figurative Uses

Shemen, literally, "fat," corresponds to the common Arabic senin of similar meaning, although now applied to boiled butter fat.

1. Terms:

Another Hebrew word, zayith (zeth), "olive," occurs with shemen in several passages (Ex 27:20; 30:24; Le 24:2). The corresponding Arabic zeit, a contraction of zeitun, which is the name for the olive tree as well as the fruit, is now applied to oils in general, to distinguish them from solid fats. Zeit usually means olive oil, unless some qualifying name indicates another oil. A corresponding use was made of shemen, and the oil referred to so many times in the Bible was olive oil (except Es 2:12). Compare this with the Greek elaion, "oil," a neuter noun from elaia, "olive," the origin of the English word "oil." yitshar, literally, "glistening," which occurs less frequently, is used possibly because of the light-giving quality of olive oil, or it may have been used to indicate fresh oil, as the clean, newly pressed oil is bright. meshach, a Chaldaic word, occurs twice: Ezr 6:9; 7:22. elaion, is the New Testament term.

2. Production and Storage:

Olive oil has been obtained, from the earliest times, by pressing the fruit in such a way as to filter out the oil and other liquids from the residue. The Scriptural references correspond so nearly to the methods practiced in Syria up to the present time, and the presses uncovered by excavators at such sites as Gezer substantiate so well the similarity of these methods, that a description of the oil presses and modes of expression still being employed in Syria will be equally true of those in use in early Israelite times.

The olives to yield the greatest amount of oil are allowed to ripen, although some oil is expressed from the green fruit. As the olive ripens it turns black. The fruit begins to fall from the trees in September, but the main crop is gathered after the first rains in November. The olives which have not fallen naturally or have not been blown off by the storms are beaten from the trees with long poles (compare De 24:20). The fruit is gathered from the ground into baskets and carried on the heads of the women, or on donkeys to the houses or oil presses. Those carried to the houses are preserved for eating. Those carried to the presses are piled in heaps until fermentation begins. This breaks down the oil cells and causes a more abundant flow of oil. The fruit thus softened may be trod out with the feet (Mic 6:15)--which is now seldom practiced--or crushed in a handmill. Such a mill was uncovered at Gezer beside an oil press. Stone mortars with wooden pestles are also used. Any of these methods crushes the fruit, leaving only the stone unbroken, and yields a purer oil (Ex 27:20). The method now generally practiced of crushing the fruit and kernels with an edgerunner mill probably dates from Roman times. These mills are of crude construction. The stones are cut from native limestone and are turned by horses or mules. Remains of huge stones of this type are found near the old Roman presses in Mt. Lebanon and other districts.

The second step in the preparation of the oil is the expression. In districts where the olives are plentiful and there is no commercial demand for the oil, the householders crush the fruit in a mortar, mix the crushed mass with water, and after the solid portions have had time to settle, the pure sweet oil is skimmed from the surface of the water. This method gives a delicious oil, but is wasteful. This is no doubt the beaten oil referred to in connection with religious ceremonials (Ex 27:20). Usually the crushed fruit is spread in portions on mats of reeds or goats' hair, the corners of which are folded over the mass, and the packets thus formed are piled one upon another between upright supports. These supports were formerly two stone columns or the two sections of a split stone cylinder hollowed out within to receive the mats. Large hollow tree trunks are still similarly used in Syria. A flat stone is next placed on top, and then a heavy log is placed on the pile in such a manner that one end can be fitted into a socket made in a wall or rock in close proximity to the pile. This socket becomes the fulcrum of a large lever of the second class. The lever is worked in the same manner as that used in the wine presses (see WINE PRESS ). These presses are now being almost wholly superseded by hydraulic presses. The juice which runs from the press, consisting of oil, extractive matter and water, is conducted to vats or run into jars and allowed to stand until the oil separates. The oil is then drawn off from the surface, or the watery fluid and sediment is drawn away through a hole near the bottom of the jar, leaving the oil in the container. (For the construction of the ancient oil presses, see The Excavations of Gezer, by Macalister.) The oil, after standing for some time to allow further sediment to settle, is stored either in huge earthenware jars holding 100 to 200 gallons, or in underground cisterns (compare 1Ch 27:28) holding a much larger quantity. Some of these cisterns in Beirut hold several tons of oil each (2Ch 11:11; 32:28; Ne 13:5,12; Pr 21:20). In the homes the oil is kept in small earthen jars of various shapes, usually having spouts by which the oil can be easily poured (1Ki 17:12; 2Ki 4:2). In 1 Sam 16:13; 1Ki 1:39, horns of oil are mentioned.

3. Uses:

(1) As a Commodity of Exchange.

Olive oil when properly made and stored will keep sweet for years, hence, was a good form of merchandise to hold. Oil is still sometimes given in payment (1Ki 5:11; Eze 27:17; Ho 12:1; Lu 16:6; Re 18:13).

(2) As a Cosmetic.

From earliest times oil was used as a cosmetic, especially for oiling the limbs and head. Oil used in this way was usually scented (see OINTMENT). Oil is still used in this manner by the Arabs, principally to keep the skin and scalp soft when traveling in dry desert regions where there is no opportunity to bathe. Sesame oil has replaced olive oil to some extent for this purpose. Homer, Pliny and other early writers mention its use for external application. Pliny claimed it was used to protect the body against the cold. Many Biblical references indicate the use of oil as a cosmetic (Ex 25:6; De 28:40; Ru 3:3; 2Sa 12:20; 14:2; Es 2:12; Ps 23:5; 92:10; 104:15; 141:5; Eze 16:9; Mic 6:15; Lu 7:46).

(3) As a Medicine.

From early Egyptian literature down to late Arabic medical works, oil is mentioned as a valuable remedy. Many queer prescriptions contain olive oil as one of their ingredients. The good Samaritan used oil mingled with wine to dress the wounds of the man who fell among robbers (Mr 6:13; Lu 10:34.)

(4) As a Food.

Olive oil replaces butter to a large extent in the diet of the people of the Mediterranean countries. In Bible lands food is fried in it, it is added to stews, and is poured over boiled vegetables, such as beans, peas and lentils, and over salads, sour milk, cheese and other foods as a dressing. A cake is prepared from ordinary bread dough which is smeared with oil and sprinkled with herbs before baking (Le 2:4). At times of fasting oriental Christians use only vegetable oils, usually olive oil, for cooking. For Biblical references to the use of oil as food see Nu 11:8; De 7:13; 14:23; 32:13; 1Ki 17:12,14,16; 2Ki 4:2,6-7; 1Ch 12:40; 2Ch 2:10,15; Ezr 3:7; Pr 21:17; Eze 16:13,18; Ho 2:5,8,22; Hag 2:12; Re 6:6.

(5) As an Illuminant.

Olive oil until recent years was universally used for lighting purposes (see LAMP; LAMPSTAND). In Palestine are many homes where a most primitive form of lamp similar to those employed by the Israelites is still in use. The prejudice in favor of the exclusive use of olive oil for lighting holy places is disappearing. Formerly any other illuminant was forbidden (compare Ex 25:6; 27:20; 35:8,14,28; 39:37; Mt 25:3-4,8).

(6) In Religious Rites.

(a) Consecration:

Consecration of officials or sacred things (Ge 28:18; 35:14; Ex 29:7,21 ff; Le 2:1 ff; Nu 4:9 ff; 1Sa 10:1; 16:1,13; 2Sa 1:21; 1Ki 1:39; 2Ki 9:1,3,1; Ps 89:20): This was adopted by the early Christians in their ceremonies (Jas 5:14), and is still used in the consecration of crowned rulers and church dignitaries.

(b) Offerings:

Offerings, votive and otherwise: The custom of making offerings of oil to holy places still survives in oriental religions. One may see burning before the shrines along a Syrian roadside or in the churches, small lamps whose supply of oil is kept renewed by pious adherents. In Israelite times oil was used in the meal offering, in the consecration offerings, offerings of purification from leprosy, etc. (Ex 29:2; 40:9 ff; Le 2:2 ff; Nu 4:9 ff; De 18:4; 1Ch 9:29; 2Ch 31:5; Ne 10:37,39; 13:5,12; Eze 16:18-19; 45:1-25; 46:1-24; Mic 6:7).

(c) Burials:

In connection with the burial of the dead: Egyptian papyri mention this use. In the Old Testament no direct mention is made of the custom. Jesus referred to it in connection with His own burial (Mt 26:12; Mr 14:3-8; Lu 23:56; Joh 12:3-8; 19:40).

4. Figurative Uses:

Abundant oil was a figure of general prosperity (De 32:13; 33:24; 2Ki 18:32; Job 29:6; Joe 2:19,24). Languishing of the oil indicated general famine (Joe 1:10; Hag 1:11). Joy is described as the oil of joy (Isa 61:3), or the oil of gladness (Ps 45:7; Heb 1:9). Ezekiel prophesies that the rivers shall run like oil, i.e. become viscous (Eze 32:14). Words of deceit are softer than oil (Ps 55:21; Pr 5:3). Cursing becomes a habit with the wicked as readily as oil soaks into bones (Ps 109:18). Excessive use of oil indicates wastefulness (Pr 21:17), while the saving of it is a characteristic of the wise (Pr 21:20). Oil was carried into Egypt, i.e. a treaty was made with that country (Ho 12:1).

James A. Patch

[Andra Brack]

From American Tract Society Dictionary

OIL

Was employed from the earliest periods in the east, not only for the purpose of consecration, but to anoint the head, the beard, and the whole person in daily life, Ge 28:18. See ANOINTING. It was also universally used for food, Eze 16:13. Fresh and sweet olive oil was greatly preferred to butter and animal fat as a seasoning for food, and to this day in Syria almost every kind of food is cooked with oil. It had a place also among the meat-offerings in the temple, being usually mixed with the meal of the oblation, Le 5:11; 6:21. For lamps, also, pure olive oil was regarded as the best, and was used in illuminating the tabernacle. These many uses for oil made the culture of the olive-tree an extensive and lucrative business, 1Ch 27:28; Eze 27:17; Ho 12:1. Oil was as much an article of storage and of traffic as corn and wine, 2Ch 32:28; Ezr 3:7. The best oil was obtained from the fruit while yet green by a slight beating or pressing, Ex 27:20; 29:40. The ripe fruit is now, and has been from ancient times, crushed by passing stone rollers over it. The crushed mass is then subjected to pressure in the oil-mill, Hebrew, gath-shemen. The olive-berries are not now trodden with the feet. This, however seems to have been practiced among the Hebrews, at least to some extent when the berries had become soft by keeping, Mic 6:15. Gethsemane, that is, oil-press, probably took its name originally from some oil-press in its vicinity. See OLIVE.

[Andra Brack]

From Smith's Bible Dictionary:

Oil

Oil.

Of the numerous substances, animal and vegetable, which were known to the ancients as yielding oil, the olive berry is the one of which most frequent mention is made in the Scriptures.

1. Gathering, --The olive berry was either gathered by hand or shaken off carefully with a light reed or stick.

2. Pressing. --In order to make oil the fruit, was either bruised in a mortar crushed in a press loaded with wood or stones, ground in a mill, or trodden with the feet. The "beaten" oil of

Ex 27:20; 29:40; Le 24:2; Nu 28:6

was probably made by bruising in a mortar, It was used-- (1) As food. Dried wheat, boiled with either butter or oil, but generally the former, is a common dish for all classes in Syria.

Ex 29:2

(2) Cosmetic. Oil was used by the Jews for anointing the body, e.g. after the bath, and giving to the skin and hair a smooth and comely appearance, e.g. before an entertainment. (3) Funereal. The bodies of the dead were anointed with oil.

2Sa 14:2

(4) Medicinal. Isaiah alludes to the use of oil in medical treatment.

Isa 1:6

see also Mark 6:13; Jame 6:14 (5) For light. The oil for "the light" was expressly ordered to be olive oil, beaten.

Mt 25:3

(6) Ritual. Oil was poured on or mixed with the flour or meal used in offerings.

Le 8:12

Kings, priests and prophets were anointed with oil or ointment. (7) In offerings. As so important a necessary of life, the Jew was required to include oil among his firstfruit offerings.

Ex 22:29; 23:16; Nu 18:12

Tithes of oil were also required.

De 12:17

[OLIVE]

See Olive

[FaithfulServant]

Hermeneutics are interesting. The most studied scholars of the Old Testament couldn't agree on even the most fundamental of truths, let alone recognize their Messiah as He stood before them in flesh.

I don't suggest that we don't study the Bible, or even that language, culture, and history can't help in that endeavor. I suggest that the single most important factor in understanding His Word is His Holy Spirit of Truth, and His Word bears that simple fact out repeatedly. It's a rabbit hole that arrogance can draw one who assumes that "shew thyself approved" means to spend most of their time in fleshly attempts to figure out text.

We should lean far more on Him than we do on our own worldly attempt to understand His plan for us.

[Chayah]

What were we all worried about, you ask?

A few pelicans? There were thousands, along with most the sea life of the gulf. Not to mention the lively hoods of so many fishermen.

But it's not going to stop here. The oil is NOT gone, regardless of what you are hearing in the news. They just sunk it with the use of dispursants. You can't just say, ABRACADABRA, and it disappears. The media has lied more in this situation than any other story I've ever observed.

And it is anything but over. Dead fish are washing up by the thousands on many shores. And the long term affects of people on the gulf is only yet to be determined. The EPA hasn't even been testing the rainwater that has been falling on the gulf. There has been a massive coverup from BP and our own government. NOAA has been conducting "sniff tests" of the fish to see if the fish are safe or not. If it doesn't smell like oil, they mark it on the chart that it's not contaminated. This test is like something from the Flinstones age. And it doesn't even show what chemicals are in those fish from the deadly dispursants that were used. It's a total joke.

Let's not become sheeple with our heads in the sand. And never start believing all your told by the corporate owned news media stations. The Weather Channel and MSNBC have been 2 of the worst in the coverup.